topic Re: Ethical question in BreakPoint

Ethical question

LV_Pro — Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:52:35 GMT

Well it is obvious the fall semester has started! I have an ethical question, which with 2 1/2 kids in college hits me at home (the 1/2 is the child of my "sigificant other"). How much help do we give the students on their projects? I've noticed that there is a marked increase in almost identical questions, some admitting to being in school, in the fall and in the spring (trying to get senior design projects done!). I want to help these future scientists/engineers, but wonder how much help it is to give them major "templates" for their current exercise, particularly when the class appears to be one aimed at learning to program in LabVIEW. I have felt a little less guilty answering questions that appeared to be peripheral to the actual project (some one is researching something, decided to use LabVIEW to aid in the data acquisition, has questions), but the latest group appears to have the use of LabVIEW as the core task to their class. I don't know that it is "helping them" to give them more than minimal assistance in figuring out how to do their project. The tag line frequently used by some here of looking to the examples sounds like one that is appropriate. In the past I have felt that we are sometimes developing large portions of someone else's work project, and in those cases it is really just whether we choose to do it as "unpaid consultants" or not, but in this instance I fear that we may be doing a disservice to the next crop of technoids. I really am not looking for survival of the fittest here, but if their course is to learn LabVIEW too much hand holding could really hurt. Of course, had there been an "APL" discussion forum (had there been the web) when my former university chose that as the primary engineering sw requirement I would probably have been posting many questions there too!

Just my thoughts, after helping two kids with their homework last night and recognizing where they should have a little illumination on a concept vs the answer handed to them. Discovered a tempation to show the young'ens that the old guy had useful knowledge (other than having lived through much of "History of Western Civilization"!) by doing their Physics or Math homework, resisted, coached them on how to read the problem, evaluate what was really being asked, etc...

P.M.

Re: Ethical question

tbob — Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:03:41 GMT

It's never a good idea to do their homework for them. On the other hand, some people learn best by example. (I'm one of those). If someone did my homework for me, I would analyze what they did and learn from it. Then they wouldn't have to do it again for me. However, this defeats the idea of learning on your own. Will I need someone to show me everytime something new came up? It's a delicate balance. I'll use my daughter and her math homework as an example. She gets stuck on a problem and doesn't know how to handle it. First I'll explain what the problem is trying to accomplish (understanding the meaning of decimal places for example). Then I would show her a method for figuring out the answer. I'll let her try. If she don't get it, I would do it while explaining the method step by step, and why I am taking these steps. Then I''' create more homework for her that uses the same method. I let her plow through. I change the problem slightly and let her do it again. I'll try to throw in some curves to make sure she understands the method and gets the general idea. This has worked pretty well so far. She is in the 5th grade and has learned how to give change for a store purchase, shortcuts in addition and subtraction (instead of adding 9, add 10 and subtract 1), and lately she has learned scientific notation and the meaning of 10 to the x power and the decimal place it occupies.

So I say, explain the steps you would take but let them take a crack at it first. If you have to, do some of the problem, then create another problem for them to solve on their own so they can learn how to think through the methodology.

Re: Ethical question

altenbach — Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:28:47 GMT

Great comment!

As such, it would be important to recognize a new thread as a "homework" question, which is not always obvious. With me, it sometimes it only "clicks" after the second similar question. 😉

A student who decides to ask a question here is already a step ahead. He took the time to to find extra resources and using a help such as in the NI discussion forum IS a core LabVIEW skill :o!

One guy (A) genuinly wants to enrich his LabVIEW skills (e.g. lets discuss once more once more in detail the difference, advantages, disadvantages, uses of: (1) FOR loop vs. WHILE loop, (2) wait vs. wait next ms multiple, (3) Integer vs floating point, (4), ...). Another (B) was partying all night, did not use LabVIEW at all and suddenly remembers that he needs to turn in his LabVIEW homework in 30 minutes. Our help should focus on Individual (A).

Maybe NI should create a student forum that would cater specifically to the deeper discussion among students and those who like to tutor them. It could turn into a "virtual study group". We need to convince them that LabVIEW is easy and most importantly fun. 😄 All it takes is some activation energy to overcome the initial stiction. 🙂

Re: Ethical question

LV_Pro — Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:32:59 GMT

I wanted to clarify my dilema a bit. The students of which I speak are the ones posting to the forums, not my 2 1/2 at home. Actually of those of mine the only one interested in our beloved LabVIEW at the moment is my youngest, who is not yet in college (not counted in the 2 1/2). She is in high school and has already stated that she wants to be a scientist or engineer and has played with LabVIEW a little, out of curiosity. The students I was refering to were those who are starting their fall projects, who usually can be identified by a sudden flurry of nearly identical postings. But, as my associate says, show them a little, nudge them in the right direction, show them why one method may be preferable to another, but let the learn. I too have benefited greatly from examples, although in Engineering courses it seems that you will have five examples describing the biasing of an NPN bipolar transistor circuit and then the problem will ask "determine the capacitance of a reverse biased diode". I just don't want to inadvertently do some you budding engineer's project, with them not really understanding the underlying principles.

P.M.

Re: Ethical question

LV_Pro — Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:37:16 GMT

Thank you Christian! You do point out the somewhat subtle difference between the "A" and "B" types' questions, which I think is important! It is probably because of your proximity to the world of academia that you recognize it! I guess I've grown a bit cynical, or maybe it was just a residual from staying up late Sunday helping someone finish a homework assignment!

P.M.

Re: Ethical question

AnalogKid2DigitalMan — Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:36:52 GMT

Interesting issues. I say give some guidance towards a partial method of solving the problem or point them towards a similar example, but far enough off so they have to think at arriving at the solutions. Non-real time exchange of ideas complicates matters, it's not like the person asking help is physically next to you where you can talk back and forth or even produce code, say wait a minute I don't understand that shift register thingy, etc.,.

Some professional boards, Eng-Tips for example, have strict policies of no homework questions. Students often stand out in their posts and are usually immediately reminded of that policy with no answers provided. A bit harsh, but it is a forum for Professionals.

Re: Ethical question

LV_Pro — Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:36:57 GMT

Well it may seem a bit harsh, but too much help isn't, in the long run, helpful. I know that there have been times when I just don't see "it" and having someone else look or point "it" out and everything clicks, but I don't want to iteratively do someones "intro to LabVIEW" project. It isn't always clear when it is a student, and I may be mistaking some development team's questions (my associate here has been "turned on" to the forum, although why he would need it with me here ... ) for some classmates questions. Is there some school doing a project with Dallas 1-wire components? Any way, figured I'd run my concerns by my valued associates, for the differing viewpoints. As always, thanks!

P.M.

Re: Ethical question

Dennis_Knutson — Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:18:35 GMT

This is a great topic and I like all the comments. I too, have occasional "ethical questions" but they'e not necessarily restricted to students. I seem to often find postings from non-students that expect a complete solution to their problem. I understand that often an employee is suddenly thrust into a position with none or inadequate training but I'm hesitant to do all the work that someone else is (presumably) being paid to do. I think getting someone over a single stumbling block is fine but if after solving one problem, they keep asking for more and more without trying to do anything themselves, I get a little frustrated.

Re: Ethical question

LV_Pro — Fri, 23 Sep 2005 22:04:57 GMT

Dennis
I too have felt that frustration, as indicated by my "unpaid consultant" comment in my original post. I think that falls less into the ethical dilema and more into where do we let them sink or swim on their own. I know that you have on a few occasions shown a lot of patience, more than I think I would. Occasionally the "solving an entire problem" seems to evolve into a cooperative exercise (C.C.'s design assistance of the home brewery project comes to mind), but I too face trying to determine where the boundry between helping someone and doing a major part of their project lays.

Well, it is 1800 Hrs, time to go do something else for a while! No moral dilema in this decision!

P.M.

Re: Ethical question

johnsold — Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:38:06 GMT

As someone who works in academia (research support, not teaching), I see this kind of thing fairly regularly, both with LV and with instrumentation issues in general (at my work as well as on the forum). A high level of awareness that some persons will attempt to abuse a help resource is the first tool. Second, when it sounds like it could be a class assignment, ask directly and politely. (Same applies to the worker who suddenly has to complete a project and just saw LV last week for the first time). If it is such project then as some of the other posters have suggested, point them to examples, tutorials, help files, etc. Also point out that the memebers of the forum will be glad to help with specific questions, but that we do not intend to do their assignements for them.

Most students are honest enough that they will agree that this is an appropriate response. Often they were so lost or frustrated that they did not consider how their request might sound.

Lynn

Re: Ethical question

Joe_H — Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:41:49 GMT

Great topic,

first off let me say that if it was not for this forum I would not be using labview today and that is why I contribute to it. But then again I did mostly learn labview on my own and i worked hard doing it since I did not have the time to learn at work where it is being utilized I had to learn it at home taking time away from my wife and kids. I also do not agree with just giving whole answers and doing the whole project for them. I believe in giving them the reasons why it is done that way. I tend to stray away from answering questions from people who post one answer and get it solved then post another, and another and another. All within a couple of days of each other. Some are legite and most are students. I would love to see a "Students corner" where they could ask their questions just so that we would know that they are infact students and we would only give the help that was in our minds Ethical. I

Re: Ethical question

Dynamik — Sat, 01 Oct 2005 09:45:08 GMT

Hi Folks,

Bah Humbug! If a person is prone to cheat, are we going to change the person by holding-back an answer? If it's a good question, we're depriving future thread readers of the solution - no matter who they are. What about the other questions answered? The life you [otherwise] help may be polluting the local environment or developing military technology across an ocean. I think there are too many unknowns to worry about what's going to serve the greater good. If it feels good to answer a question, go for it! If it's fun to hold back and just give hints, ditto! If there _is_ a "greater good", it's probably served through your generousity.

I have no sense of perspective - sorry if this offends.

Cheers!

Re: Ethical question

BJD1613 — Wed, 05 Oct 2005 19:17:32 GMT

Let me expand on this a little. What do you do when your prof who taught you LV in school asks you questions. I have kept a semi close relationship with two of my profs from school and I was receiving alot of questions for some time. Unfortunely I couldn't answer all of them due to the environment that I was working in. I felt that I should help them because ultimately it will improve their students and after all they introduced me to the environment in the first place. I know that their knowledge is limited and that most of their students have come out with some bad habits so I figured that I could help. In my opinion I feel that if we can help the profs as much as we can we can help the LV community in the future by ultimately producing more skilled developers. If the profs are more knowledgable about how they teach LV it probably will limit the questions that come up. Maybe 🙂

Re: Ethical question

Ben — Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:55:07 GMT

This seems like th right place to post this request.

Could someone help me out with this problem.

Thank you,

Ben

Re: Ethical question

Ben — Wed, 19 Oct 2005 19:36:01 GMT

Thank you!

I have big meeting tomorow and that was the last thing I needed.

Ben

Re: Ethical question

tbob — Wed, 19 Oct 2005 19:53:10 GMT

I could give you a one star rating, that would make the number change.... I'm sure CC and some of the others would be happy to oblige.

Re: Ethical question

LV_Pro — Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:20:23 GMT

BJD1613,
I wasn't suggesting that we don't help those in the academic world, just that at the beginning and end of what I perceive as the academic semester there are always a flurry of questions, frequently several from different posters, about the same or similar problems. Then, in some cases, there are a series of follow on questions, that if taken as a whole would appear to be building essentially a whole solution. I'm reluctant to "do someones homework", just as with my own children (14 - 21, high school to college) I will help point them in the right direction, but won't do the homework for them. Professors/teachers are another matter, I have no issue with showing them as much as needed to "achieve enlightenment"! But usually the ones I detect appear to be students or even "teammates" trying to get major parts of their assignment done. Similarly I've seen a few times where it appeared that someone was trying to get us to write their work project for them. I am paid reasonably well for my LabVIEW work product, have absolutely no problem helping someone resolve an issue or a few issues that may have come up in their coding, but really don't think it appropriate to do their work for them.

Love this group! Great minds, interesting ideas, "kewl" solutions. I learn from you all, and hopefully contribute as well.

P.M.

P.S. I hope that the meeting went well Ben, I am having a week that would appear to be influenced by the "beast". Jury duty on Tuesday, car problems making me miss a meeting this morning, yada yada yada!

Message Edited by LV_Pro on 10-20-2005 11:22 AM

Re: Ethical question

Ben — Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:47:50 GMT

"I hope that the meeting went well Ben,"

Thanks Putnam it did. They liked our demo and we get to move on to the next phase.

I hope things settle down for you.

Ben

Re: Ethical question

roboticus — Sun, 09 Apr 2006 20:20:16 GMT

Hi, gang--

I just stumbled across this thread while looking for something else. But my technique is to first ask 'em a few questions to find out just what their difficulty is. If they're reasonably motivated and it seems like they're trying to do their own work, I try to give 'em hints couched as questions. If they're just stuck overall, then I guide 'em to a tutorial (if I'm aware of one) and tell 'em to do the tutorial, and *then* go back to their problem. If they seem to be trying to avoid doing the work, I just ask a couple questions to hopefully get 'em to think on their own, and send 'em off with a "good luck with your problem!".

--roboticus

Re: Ethical question

TiTou — Mon, 10 Apr 2006 06:38:53 GMT

Hi,

I like roboticus way to do and think that it's kind of fair because those who wants to understand will get alot from that method. This is certainly a good ethical way to behave for us.

But I also remember when I was a student (that isn't so far behind ) and I admit I was kind of lazy, one of my favorite catch phrase was "Why shall I do now something that can be done by someboby-else ?"... Things have changed, I have changed but most students are like this and only with a few lines it is hard to find out if the Questionner is lazy or not

So I try to help all of them ths same way, hopping that they won't be as lazy as I used to be.