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USB-8473 BusMonitor Error Frame

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Don, terminating the USB-8473 (and 8472) modules is "complicated."  Have a read through this thread to understand what I mean.

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Message 21 of 33
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If you're connecting to an existing CAN bus/backbone, it should already be properly terminated.  Adding additional termination resistors will lower the impedance of the bus and it may or may not work.  If the added stub is less than a meter or so, there should be no issue, if it is longer than a meter well then you could have noise issues.  You really can't add additional termination to the bus to mitigate the noise.  Between CAN hi and CAN lo, with all nodes unpowered, you should be able to take an ohmeter and measure 60 ohms if the bus is properly terminated with a 120 resisitor at each end.  (If all nodes are not unpowered you'll get some odd readings, sometimes negative).  Normally when I do can in vehicle, I use a laptop running on batteries and connect only to CAN hi and CAN lo, using simple twisted pair.  The ground is usually not relevant because the communication is based on a differential pair.  If you have two ground planes that have substantially different potentials then you have and issue and should really be optically isolated. Adding optical isolation actually creates a "gateway" of sorts and becomes a bus in itself.  I use this technique when the stub is much longer than 1 meter.  The isolator would be within one meter of the backbone thus keeping the stub within the one meter tolerance.  Now that you have effectively connected two backbones through the isolator the new backbone will have its own termination so it can be as long as....  I don't remember how long a bus/backbone can be off the top of my head.   Caution, don't over think this, the CAN backbone should be terminated at each end of the bus.  Generally a stub is not terminated.  So if you are connecting at the end of the bus, removing a terminator and extending the bus, this is not a stub connection and needs to be terminated.  If you are connecting between the ends of the bus, this is a stub, and should not require addtional termination.

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Message 22 of 33
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I read the Philips app note.  They state the stub termination is optional and may help in "noisy" environments.   I have never tried this technique so I cannot speak to it.  I may try it though since I deal with CAN in very noisy environments all the time.

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Message 23 of 33
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Adam,

 

You misunderstood my question...I'll repeat it with additional clarifaction.

 

Just so I'm clear, it sounds like when using the USB-8473 with the NI Bus Monitor... it will not terminate a transmission, creating an error frame (if the listen only checkbox is checked or not). By terminating a transmission I mean that the USB-8473 sees an issue on the bus with a given message then sends out an Error Frame (on top of the current message) to globalize it to the entire bus.

 

Is this Correct?

 

Thanks,

Don

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Message 24 of 33
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Hello Don,

 

I guess I'm lost.....but...

 

If the bus monitor is not in listen only mode, won't it throw an error frame if the message it receives has an error?

Maybe that's your question to begin with?

 

I'm sorry I thought we were having issues with bus termination.

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Message 25 of 33
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Yes, that is the question. I only worded itthat way because of statements earlier in the thread.

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Message 26 of 33
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Ok well, I don't know, it seems like it should....

 

If I get a chance I'll test it...

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Message 27 of 33
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Accepted by topic author don_m

Hello Don,

 

You are correct in thinking the CAN device will not terminate transmission if it detects an error frame when using the Bus Monitor. The Bus Monitor is meant to be passive and not to control the network. If you have the listen only check box not checked all it will to is send out an ACK that it received a frame. If it is checked it will not send out any bits. Hope this answers your question.

 

Best Regards,

 

Adam G 

National Instruments
Applications Engineer
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Message 28 of 33
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Doc_Holiday1865 wrote:

...if it is longer than a meter well then you could have noise issues.  You really can't add additional termination to the bus to mitigate the noise. 


With regard to "noise," have a look at the NI-CAN Hardware and Software Manual, page 4-1.  Note pin-5 of the 9-pin D-SUB Connector.  When I built a cable for use with my 8473, I was sure to connect pin-5.  Doing that means pin-5 is then connected to the metal part of the connector head and the cable shield, thereby "improving signal integrity in a noisy environment."  

 

But despite my use of the cable shield connection, I still get a single Error Frame when using the 8473 at 500kBaud on Toyotas when I turn the Ignition on:

 

http://forums.ni.com/t5/Automotive-and-Embedded-Networks/NI-USB-CAN-9-pin-D-SUB-cable-and-proper-aut...

 

That remains true even though I have "Listen Only" ticked in MAX.

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Message 29 of 33
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It is not uncommon to get one or two error frames as things power up.  This is usually due to not having a long enough start up delay to wait until power supplies are stable before transmission of messages.  This should not happen, but it does.

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Message 30 of 33
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