Thin Cluster, Thin Array borders

[JasonD_at_UML]

Hi, I do a lot of UI work with LabVIEW, and I'm finding over and over that when you have an array of clusters, the appearance is still to "fat".

I'd like to see a very thin border for Arrays and Clusters.

If you look at the "Simple String" control, this is exactly what I mean. It's a single pixel border.

Maybe like this:

 

[smercurio_fc]

Arrays should be eschewed as front panel controls, as they are not very intuitive. Usually you are better off with a table control or a multicolumn listbox for a GUI.

That said, this is essentially a duplicate of this: http://forums.ni.com/t5/LabVIEW-Idea-Exchange/Flat-controls-indicators-and-containers/idi-p/919361

[dthor]

While I agree that arrays don't make very good front panel controls for users, I would absolutely love it if my "development indicators" as I just now decided to call them (front panel objects hidden from normal user view but visible to me though various forms of trickery and deception) took up less space.

In regards to the Idea you linked Altenbach, I kudoed that one on the grounds that we'd still be able to set a minimal (1px or so) border. Very similar though, could probably close this one as a duplicate.

[altenbach]

I agree this is basically a duplicate of my old idea.

> Arrays should be eschewed as front panel controls, as they are not very intuitive. Usually you are better off with a table control or a multicolumn listbox for a GUI.

I strongly disagree for the case of controls ( I use tables and listboxes for indicators, though. Maybe that's what you meant).

Tables are basically arrays of strings and thus don't have built-in validation (text vs. floating point vs. integer, range checking, etc. For example compare entering the following into a string control, a DBL control, and a I32 control: "hello", "nan" "1e-5", "1k", etc. and you'll see what I mean). They need vast additional code if used as numeric inputs to retain the desired functionality. My front panels (example) would all be signficantly more complicated without the use of arrays.

[JasonD_at_UML]

I'll concede that a similar idea may have been proposed (oops) by Altenbach, but smercurio - I stand by my use of Arrays as front panel controls, since I think that it depends on the usage scenario.

Wouldn't that be like saying - "you shouldn't use a SGL number ever, because they are not accurate enough." - well, sometimes no, but depending on the circumstance, sometimes they're appropriate.

Consider my simple example image above. Say I've hidden the array index(er) and shown the vertical scrollbar. Now scrolling is simple and more intuitive.

If you're familiar with how GMail displays email, that is the appearance I'm going for. A checkbox and a thing.

I have a cluster consisting of a boolean checkbox, and a string of "filenames", and I've made an array of these clusters (much like what you see above). Now consider I have 100 filenames, and I'm asking the user to "check" the checkbox for the files they wish to select. Perhaps I want to "check" around 75 of them.

I provide a "select all" and a "select none" button to expedite the selection process. The user perhaps selects "all" (checks all the checkboxes) and then removes the check from the 25 they don't want to "keep".

Or, if they're click-happy, select none, and then clickity-click-click 75 times by clicking and scrolling down the line.

Perhaps I'm not thinking of the most efficient solution, but there's no way I'd want to right click or shift click or control click 75 items sequentially in a multicolumn listbox or a multiselect text listbox.

So, I think it depends on the application, and the target audience. My audience happens to be folks with at least 1 year of LV experience. I might not use the same UI for gradeschool children. (Although kids could probably teach us all a thing or two about technology usage.)

[smercurio_fc]

I said what I said and I meant it. I didn't say arrays should never be used. I said that they should be eshewed, i.e., avoided. I find array controls (yes, controls) on top-level GUIs ugly and non-intuitive, and I have heard the same exact comments from others who work with me as well. Granted, scroll bars on arrays have made them a little easier to use. 

I didn't say your idea wasn't worth considering. All I said was that it seemed to be a duplicate of altenbach's idea.

[altenbach]

Yes, array controls can be problematic in some cases. 😄

I was surprised about your scrollbar comment. Actually, the introduction of scrollbars have opened another can of worms that needs to be addressed and I often stay with fixed size array with the scrollbar and index control hidden. It really depends on the specific case, but IMHO, given the choice between using a single array control of size N and a N-sized pile of scalar controls, I go with the array control every time. 😄

(The perceived "ugliness" is probably partly because of the current shortcomings that these two ideas are trying to address. Done right, an array control can be made visually indistiguishable form a neatly arranged set of scalar controls and the true benefit is found on the diagram with cleaner code ;))

[ErnieH]

What is the statute of limitations on ideas. If they don't implement them, does that mean you can never suggest them again? Few people are going to go back that far. I say if they don't implement it, let em re suggest it. 

[altenbach]

> I say if they don't implement it, let em re suggest it. 

There is no instant gratification here: It might take a few versions before an idea gets implemented.

In any case, you would probably need to wait until a previous idea has been changed to "declined" before considering to resubmit it with enough changes to basically make it a new idea. There probably was a good reason why an ideal has been declined (not enough votes, dumb, impossible to implement, etc), and resubmitting it verbatim would make no sense. It would just add to the noise and there would be no reason why the outcome would be any different.

If you really want something, just vote for it. 😄

[PhillipBrooks]

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@jasond at UML wrote:

Hi, I do a lot of UI work with LabVIEW, and I'm finding over and over that when you have an array of clusters, the appearance is still to "fat".

I'd like to see a very thin border for Arrays and Clusters.

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If you want something similar that you can use today, there is a LAVA post that contains a version of an empty cluster control that has a 1-pixel border.

http://lavag.org/topic/11002-cluster-border-thickness/

[ErnieH]

They really don't seem concerned about improving the front panel controls, at least as making it easier to put more information on each screen. Even the new controls (which look nice BTW) are huge. If you want smaller custom controls, the LAVA cluster is a good option to start with. Altenbach's idea was a very good one, it is a shame it was not implemented.