Some uncomfortable questions about LabView on Linux

[m-s]

I am planning to deploy LabView for Linux using our site wide license (I believe we have license for version 8), and I have a few questions about this. In System Requirements for version 8.2, ni.com says (http://www.ni.com/labview/requirements.htm) :

Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS 3, MandrakeLinux/Mandriva 10.0, SuSE Linux 9.1 (recommended).

I now have a few questions :

1. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but LabView 8.2 came out in the middle of 2006. All the operating systems you list here are from 2003-04, which are 4 years old right now. We purchased a new computer from Dell for doing our measurements. It has SATA disks. No operating system 4 years old had support for SATA disks, not windows, not linux, nothing. So, I wonder why is National Instruments so intent on forcing its Linux customers into using old hardware ? Yes, yes, I have read comments about how Linux APIs change from kernel to kernel, but for heaven's sake this is getting ridiculous - couldn't you folks have picked an OS that was released in early 2006 or even late 2005 ?

If you look at the system requirements for Windows, Windows Vista, which came out AFTER LabView 8.2 was first released, is supported. Yes, I know your decision to support Vista is a commercial one as that is where most of your user base is, but this less than stellar treatment of your Linux customers does not sit well. Linux users pay as much as Windows users for LabView PDS. Not one cent less. So why the niggardly treatment ? I am not asking for NI to support Ubuntu 7.04 but at least support something that was current at the time of the release of LabView 8.2 (August 2006) !

Setting aside the issue of fairness here, don't people at NI realize that they are killing off demand for one of their products through such practices ? I imagine that NI spends a lot of resources in even putting out LabView PDS for Linux, so the decision to kill off Linux sales by forcing your customers to use artificially crippled old versions of the OS is a strange one.

2. This is a question that has been posed so many times that it is not even funny any more. As to why NI does not support Debian based OS'es, its again a mystery. Shawn, who has helped me more than once in the past when I was setting up LabView 7.1 on Debian at my previous job, has stated on these forums that Distrowatch rankings do not reflect the reality (or words to that effect). That statement is flawed on many counts :

a). Dell recently started selling Ubuntu powered Dell machines and in recent days, have expanded the line to keep up with demand. Like it or not, Ubuntu (which is a Debian derivative) has won the inter-distro war, for now (though PC LOS has shown some strength lately). Dell has made its fortune by selling reasonably priced hardware in very large volumes. Clearly, they see that the future belongs to Ubuntu (I mean they could have gone with OpenSuSe or Fedora or Mandriva, but they did not). They will shortly release Ubuntu for businesses and also introduce it internationally.

b). deb packaged distros account for more than half of all new Linux installs done by users, and close to 100% of all non-server installs done by an OEM. Debian, Ubuntu, Mepis, Mint, DSL, etc. are all big players in the top 10 distros, and cumulatively (along with Kubuntu, Knoppix, etc.) account for more hits than the rest of all the package formats combined. Tech writer after tech writer has predicted the demise of rpm as a format. So, the decision to not support a deb based distro (pick any, we don't mind which), coupled with what I said above, makes NI's decisions even more strange.

c). Your user base has a lot of Redhat users because your system requirements tend to force people into rpm based distros. While that may work in the short term, that is a doomed strategy as rpm, as a format, faces a very bleak future in Linux even 2-5 years down the road. So, this is a friendly reminder that you guys need to catch up with the modern times when it comes to your Linux product.

Now that I have gotten the uncomfortable questions out of the way, let me pose some immediate ones that should be a lot easier to answer :

1. I plan to try Kubuntu 7.04 first, followed by Fedora Core 7 as the distro on which LabView 8 will be installed. I have read about people having issues with X server freezing when LabView is started. I also read that there might be a corelation with the fact that most modern Linux distros use 4K stacks instead of 8K stacks for greater efficiency. Are these two facts related ? Has anyone here installed LabView 8 on Kubuntu/Ubuntu (any other Debian distro) and had stable operation ? If so, what did you need to do to make it happen ?

2. Is there a way to upgrade LabView 8 to 8.2 using our sitewide license ? In any case, what are the enhancements in your Linux product in 8.2 over 8 ?

Thanks.

Message Edited by m-s on 07-18-2007 11:51 AM

[Shawn B.]

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@m-s wrote:
In System Requirements for version 8.2, ni.com says (http://www.ni.com/labview/requirements.htm) :

Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS 3, MandrakeLinux/Mandriva 10.0, SuSE Linux 9.1 (recommended).

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It looks like that page simply was not updated correctly, or perhaps it should say or later versions.  In general I would recommend looking at http://www.ni.com/linux/support.htm for information about the supported distributions.  I'll see if we can get that LabVIEW page updated.  As a general rule we try to support the latest versions of the officially supported distributions when a product releases.

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2. This is a question that has been posed so many times that it is not even funny any more. As to why NI does not support Debian based OS'es, its again a mystery. Shawn, who has helped me more than once in the past when I was setting up LabView 7.1 on Debian at my previous job, has stated on these forums that Distrowatch rankings do not reflect the reality (or words to that effect).

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Correct...  But I think that you are still missing the key point of my statements in the past.  I am not claiming that Ubuntu and Debian based distributions aren't popular.  What I have claimed in the past is that National Instruments' customers are simply not providing enough demand for us to support Debian or Ubuntu.  In other words, when we look at the data from our customers on which distributions they are using and which distributions they want us to support, Ubuntu and Debian are not in the top three.  Even as a simple example here are the number of search results in the NI forums for three distributions that are unsupported by National Instruments.

ubuntu 67
debian 179
fedora 331

So while Ubuntu is number one on Distrowatch.com it is far from the top in the NI forums.  Additionally I should comment that this certainly isn't the only way we are determining the popularity of Linux distributions amoung NI customers.

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c). Your user base has a lot of Redhat users because your system requirements tend to force people into rpm based distros. While that may work in the short term, that is a doomed strategy as rpm, as a format, faces a very bleak future in Linux even 2-5 years down the road. So, this is a friendly reminder that you guys need to catch up with the modern times when it comes to your Linux product.

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Certainly this is your first valid point.  Perhaps Ubuntu and Debian simply aren't as popular amoung NI customers because NI only supports rpm based distributions.  This simply may be the chicken and the egg problem.  Of course the biggest problem still remains that in order for NI to support Ubuntu or Debian we would need to redesign our installer architecture to support both rpm and deb packages.  Since this is not a simple change having large customer demand would certainly help justify the business case.

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1. I plan to try Kubuntu 7.04 first, followed by Fedora Core 7 as the distro on which LabView 8 will be installed. I have read about people having issues with X server freezing when LabView is started. I also read that there might be a corelation with the fact that most modern Linux distros use 4K stacks instead of 8K stacks for greater efficiency. Are these two facts related ? Has anyone here installed LabView 8 on Kubuntu/Ubuntu (any other Debian distro) and had stable operation ? If so, what did you need to do to make it happen ?

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4K kernel stacks instead of 8K kernel stacks to my knowledge is only present in Fedora Core and RHEL.  Additionally this problem is purely a driver concern when using NI-DAQmx, NI-DMM, NI-SCOPE, or NI-FGEN.

Shawn B.
National Instruments

[Shawn B.]

I forgot the most important question:

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@m-s wrote:

2. Is there a way to upgrade LabView 8 to 8.2 using our sitewide license ? In any case, what are the enhancements in your Linux product in 8.2 over 8 ?

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I would recommend contacting your local sales rep, or our sales line on the contact page.  They should be able to tell you if you have a valid SSP contract and thus are eligable to receive LabVIEW 8.2.1 for free, as well as what enhancements you would gain.

Shawn B.
National Instruments

[m-s]

Hello Shawn,

Thanks for the detailed responses to my questions. As always, I find them to be very helpful.

I have contacted our local site manager and they confirmed that they have licenses for LabVIEW 8.2 PDS for Linux. I have obtained the CD and installed it to the machine.

I tried to install it on Fedora Core 7, to avoid any package management related problems, but I am having an issue with the installer being unable to detect the source for the kernel (when it tries to install hardware drivers - which we do need for this machine). Please see my other thread "Problem installing LabVIEW 8.2 on Fedora Core 7" for details. I could really use your wisdom on that one.

With regards.