02-28-2022 03:09 PM
@LeonFluid wrote:
Hi, Kevin,
I am measuring an extremely quick force; the duration being less than 0.05 sec. The laser is used for measuring the velocity of a falling object. It is expected to get a large force when the velocity reaches the maximum value.
If you identified a 110 msec time delay between 2 measured signals may cause a difference when post-processing and analysing the data. May I ask how you check the time difference between the two signals? Is there any way that we can output their start time independently?
Kind Regards,
Leon
What is falling and what is it impacting? A tenth of a second lag (And Kevin inspecting your DAQmx configuration- He's REALLY GOOD at that) point to unexplained physical phenomenae.
You are not quite correct in your statement. More precisely the largest impact force would be coincident with the largest negative change in object speed. (The fall doesn't hurt, it's the sudden stop at the end) if anything has elastic properties that could explain the observations on speed data. The derivative is Acceleration and in force units .
02-28-2022 03:54 PM
Hi,
I am sorry for any unclear information. Actually, there is a vertically falling cylinder onto initially calm water. The laser is monitoring the movement of the cylinder and the force sensor is measuring the sudden impact force when it reaches the water surface. From the distance measurement from the laser, its velocity can be calculated by differentiation. It is expected to obtain that when the cylinder contacts with water, the velocity begins to decrease and the force signal has a sudden increase.
The trigger system works as below: press the release button - cylinder begins to fall - simultaneously, force sensor and laser begin to collect data for 5 sec - end. Effectively, we are only focusing on data when the cylinder is about to reach the water surface and after impacting the water surface; this duration being less than 0.3 sec.
Hence, if there is any time delay between these two measurements, it may cause problems when we synchronize both signals.
Kind Regards,
Leon
02-28-2022 04:13 PM
Extra 8-ball points to Jay for his hypothesis in spite of not being able to see your posted vi graph data from his phone!
To the OP: I'm inclined to amend my 110 msec remarks. They were based on a laser step function at ~0.53 sec and a force step-like function at ~0.64 sec with no other knowledge of what the system is all about. With more knowledge now, the interpretation changes.
Now I know that the force data is an impact with a maximum force magnitude occurring at ~0.67 sec. And I know the laser is measuring velocity. So the linear downward slope makes sense for something in freefall with constant (negative) acceleration. Not sure what's going on that makes it "come to life" at ~0.53 sec or the 2 brief dropouts. But the velocity starts showing non-linear curvature right around the beginning of the impact event. It pretty well flattens out a little after 1/2 way through the impact. I'd be guessing an inelastic collision as the velocity shows no sign of "bounce".
So now it seems to me that the timing discrepancy is pretty small, down in the realm of a handful of msec or less. Do you need to do better than that? You'll have your work cut out for you...
1. Although force Mod1/ai1 is first in the channel list, it appears to lag force Mod1/ai5 by ~3 msec. The effect of the convert clock mentioned by JÞB would account for only ~4 microsec and in the opposite direction.
2. I would expect Mod2/ai6 to align pretty closely to Mod1/ai1, probably using the standard minimum time from trigger signal to sample clock to convert clock. Even if I'm guessing wrong, any convert clock skew between the 2 tasks would be under 0.5 msec.
Something you *could* try is to use channel expansion to put all 3 channels in 1 task at the higher sample rate. But I doubt you'll be able to detect a difference.
3. Your data doesn't show any real step-function-like edges that let you compare signal timing to an extreme precision. My "handful of msec" remark is driven partly by the "fuzziness" of evaluating your data visually on the graphs, partly by the fairly apparent lag from one force measurement to the other.
4. Do you have access to an oscilloscope? That's a good way to capture simultaneously and compare to the DAQ results.
There's probably not much more I can do from afar. The true timing discrepancy seems to be pretty small and is likely to be mostly in your sensors or system, not the DAQ.
-Kevin P
02-28-2022 06:04 PM
Get it Kev
I knew there had to be some physical phenomenae! Amending 3dB helps. Could you show the graphs with dirivites?
03-01-2022 10:30 AM
Hi, Kevin,
1. I also identified a time difference between the peak in two voltage signals. That may caused by the time lag between Mod1/ai1 and Mod1/ai5.
2. unfortunately, the highest frequency that can be used for the laser is 1.5 kHz, which is too low for measuring a impact force.
So the LabVIEW programme I provided does not show any problem. The reason why I want to check the time lag among signals is because I found the velocity is still increasing after cylinder impacting water surface, and furthermore, the peak voltage (negative) identified from the output from force sensors does not occur at the same time when the cylinder impacts water surface. Actually it occurs later than impact event. I thought there might be time-lag problems but in this case I may need to check my physical equipment to see whether if there is any mistake in mounting the force sensor.
Overall, thank you very much for your kindly help.
Kind Regards,
Leon
03-01-2022 10:36 AM
Hi,
Please find the attached figures. It is calculated by differentiation of the displacement measured by lasers.
Kind Regards,
Leon
03-01-2022 11:35 AM
A couple corrections for the sake of clarity and reality:
1. The "time lag" between the data acq conversions of Mod1/ai1 and Mod1/ai5 will be less than 1/2 the sample interval. At 120 kHz sampling, the lag will be no more than about 4 microseconds. That's NOT where the problem is.
2. I don't know why you place this limit. Your data acq equipment is free to sample as fast as it can, regardless of how fast the laser signal updates its own output signal.
You may be right that you aren't getting much useful *signal* information from such drastic oversampling, but the purpose of the suggestion was to give you the best possible *timing* correlation between your laser and force signals.
I suspect the laser sensor itself is at least playing a role. The reasoning goes like this:
- force corresponds to acceleration (F=ma)
- velocity is the integral of acceleration
Given that, and even give that integration helps smooth things out, I would expect the integral of that force signal to result in velocity behavior that wasn't *quite* so nice and smooth. I suspect some of that smoothness is built-in is inherent to the laser sensor, perhaps due to filtering, and filtering comes with delays.
-Kevin P
03-01-2022 06:05 PM
The speed if light in H2O is not the same as in air!
Then, go figure Water, is the universal solvent and almost never pure H2O. And, it is a compressible liquid!
The ringing in your graph demonstrates that *clearly* 😀
Dang physics! Always F'n up perfectly good tests!