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Thermocouple calibration with NI 9213 and NI USB 9162

Hi. Firstly I apologise if this is in the wrong section, I am a new to all of this...including these forums! I am working on a project where I need to take temperature measurements in a water tank, in the range of 0-100 degrees C. My setup will be a simple line of eight thermocouples equally spaced throughout the height of the tank so I can record variations in temperature with height. I have the NI 9213 plugged into the NI USB 9162 and a number of hermetically sealed T type thermocouples. My question is about calibration. I was told the best thing we had to carry out calibration was a heater bath with two decimal point display so I set out calibrating the thermocouples using signalexpress and the heater bath. I used somewhere in the range of five or so temperatures over the given range but the thermocouples still seem to have large deviations from one another, I was hoping for an accuracy of around 0.1 degree C for the project. What can I do to improve this? I purchased this Calibrator hoping that it was a simple case to maybe plug the sensors in and set the temperature to calibrate more accurately but this doesn't seem the case...my naivity must have got the better of me! It seems instead I would plug this into the NI 9213 to calibrate that. I must admit I am at a bit of a loss and somewhat confused, I was under the impression I was calbrating the individual sealed thermocouples but am I really just calibrating the NI 9213, after all the former is just two lengths of wire?

 

Any help would be much appreciated and I apologise for my stupidity!

 

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Hi j29388,

 

This sounds like an interesting application. I have a few questions to help clarify some things, and I have a few comments in reply to your questions.

 

QUESTIONS

1) Are thermistors or RTDs options for you to replace thermocouples?

The temperature range of 0-100 degrees C is fairly limited. In fact, it's limited enough that other transducers such as Thermistors and RTDs would survive. Are these options for you? If they are, I recommend pursuit of higher accuracy with those transducers. Although thermocouples can be accurate, they are inherently compound measurements consisting of a primary voltage measurement and a secondary absolute temperature measurement (usually in the form of a thermistor, although sometimes in the form of a fixed point reference cell). It is often easier to achieve higher absolute accuracy with thermistors than with TCs if the temperature range is limited enough.

 

2) Your calibrator has a 2 decimal display. Does that mean x.xx degrees Celsius?

 

3) What is the specified accuracy of the calibrator you are using?

Just because it displays extra digits doesn't necessarily mean it is actually accurate to that much precision.

 

4) What do you mean that you "set out to calibrate"? Do you mean verify? Or do you mean to adjust some constants in the processing of the data?

 

5) Are you looking for absolute accuracy or relative accuracy between your thermocouples?

 

 

ANSWERS

A) "The thermocouples still seem to have large deviations from one another..."

Although I don't know the scale of what you mean by "large" it is not surprising that the various channels vary from each other. This can be because of TC wires themselves not being matched to each other, and from channel specific errors in your thermocouple instrument (the NI 9213). My guess (without being able to see your system) is that the bulk of the mismatch comes from the 9213, especially from the Cold Junction Compensation (CJC). A portion of the CJC error comes from isothermal error, which is the difference in temperature from the point where the CJC senses and the point where the TC wire meets the instruments connectors. This would be a unique error on each channel because each channel would have slightly different temperature gradients between it and the CJC inside the instrument.

 

B) "I was hoping for 0.1C accuracy for the project"

This will not be trivial to achieve. This is certainly beyond what we specify in our manual. I'm willing to bet it's also well beyond what the TC wire manufacturer specifies. You will definitely need to do a custom calibration and use best practices to squeeze out every last drop of accuracy possible.

 

C) "What can I do to improve this?"

It sounds like you have a good head start by employing your thermocouple calibrator. You will need to use this calibrator to provide reference points so that you can adjust various constants in your post processing so that your channels match.

 

In addition, you should follow some best practices to get more stable performance out of the 9213 than what it is specified for. I wouldn't say that best practices are always required, but the accuracy you are seeking is well beyond specifications. If you are seeking relative accuracy between channels, then I would say that the number one most important thing you can do is to put the 9213 in some place cozy and protected from air drafts and sudden temperature changes. Number two would be to get the system fully running and acquiring data for a long time before you calibrate. These two recommendations will ensure stable thermal gradients inside your instrument and therefore allow you to calibrate out the isothermal errors.

 

D) "Am I calibrating the TC wire or the 9213?"

You are calibrating both. This is a system level calibration which is the most accurate overall method because it lets you eliminate all stable errors from the whole system.

 

E) "Isn't the TC just two lengths of wire?"

Well,... yes, it is just two lengths of wire. But very tiny shifts in the alloy properties of the materials can cause significant changes in the thermal to voltage characteristics of those wires. Those wires are probably from the same spool, and are probably similar to each other, but they *might* not be entirely homogenous and *might* have different properties from each other. Additionally, manufacturers differ greatly from each other and only need to meet NIST defined accuracy requirements in order to call it "T type". Standard allowable error for T-type is ~1C. If you want to use a wire for greater accuracy than the manufacturer specifies it for then you'll need to do your own custom calibration. You'll even need to repeat the calibration periodically because thermocouples experience various types of destabilizing decay (especially for base metal types like your T-types).

 

SUMMARY

Whew... that's a lot of information. I'll try to summarize the key points: 1) It will be difficult to achieve 0.1C overall accuracy with a thermocouple. 2) Since you have a calibrator, you can drastically improve uncertainty but you will need to perform some sort of software compensation. 3) You will need to follow some best practices to stabilize as many errors as possible.

 

All in all, you can certainly make improvements as long as you're willing to be careful and perform some math. As to the math... we'll need another post for that.

 

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Regarding the math of doing your own custom calibration...

 

I just happen to have recently done my own custom thermocouple wire calibration using fixed point cells that I created at home. So I'm fairly familiar with the math and even have some LabVIEW code that I wrote to create custom polynomials to fit the experimental curves. My situation was a little different than yours but you should be able to apply the principles. Unfortunately I'm not able to send the info today, but I hope to update this thread tomorrow with a method if no one else jumps in before me.

 

Do you have LabVIEW?

 

-DOusley

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For this type of measurement range and uncertaincy a set of RTDs would have been a better choice.

You can meet it with TCs but you will need a dedicated calibration of your measuring chain and a close look at your cold junction and connectors and  .... (you are dealing with µV!!)

 

With RTDs (in 4 (3) wire) you would get it out of the box, even if you have to replace a sensor. (a PT100-B/10 is not as cheap as a TC, but if you calc the calibrations  it will be cheaper)

 

Greetings from Germany
Henrik

LV since v3.1

“ground” is a convenient fantasy

'˙˙˙˙uıɐƃɐ lɐıp puɐ °06 ǝuoɥd ɹnoʎ uɹnʇ ǝsɐǝld 'ʎɹɐuıƃɐɯı sı pǝlɐıp ǝʌɐɥ noʎ ɹǝqɯnu ǝɥʇ'


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Hi all and many thanks for the replies. To answer some of the questions I could have initially selected to use thermistors/RTDs and even with my lack of knowledge and experience I wanted to use RTDs but after speaking with several people with more experience than me I was led down the thermocouple route...assured that I could get the accuracy I want with careful calibration. I am still unsure as to why they were so keen on thermocouples but alas I have now headed down this route and a lot of money has been spent on the NI9213 which as far as I can tell can only use thermocouples? It would seem then I am stuck with what I have and will have to make the best of it. 

 

The calibrator I have is all but useless, it will still be good for double checking the calibration of the NI9213 itself at points in the future, but as mentioned it will obviously be more beneficial to calibrate the system as a whole. This is what I was doing with the heater bath. You are correct with the x.xx C two decimal display. The trouble with said heater bath is that it only seems good to one decimal place, with slight fluctuations in the second, on top of that there is obviously going to be inhomogeneities throughout the bath itself and then the errors associated with each thermocouple which I believe to be a base error of 0.5 C, although this can be better apparently dependent on each individual thermocouple. Also supposedly this error in the thermocouples may just be an offset which could be corrected within the software, could this be done by just offsetting the cold junction value slightly or not? Again in my naivety and playing around yesterday I did this and now (in high resolution mode where the accuracy of the NI9213 apparently goes to <0.025 C albeit not including the thermocouple error) all the thermocouple readings sit in quite a tight region but I am guessing this is a bit of a fudge.

 

I have currently just calibrated the system using labview signal express and the calibration procedure within that, I take it this not the best way? I am interested in the maths required to calibrate the system accurately and that is probably the route I need/want to go down, so any guidance on that would be greatly appreciated.

 

Many thanks again for all your help.

 

Jamie.

 

 

P.S. Also just to confirm another couple of points, I do have labview and absolute temperature is not crucial as I am more interested in the difference in temperatures.

 

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To be clear about 9213 accuracy, you mentioned that in High Resolution mode that the accuracy is <0.025C...

 

The measurement sensitivity (page 22 of the manual) shows 0.02C. This is the smallest change that you can expect to see using a 9213. However it is not accuracy and is really referring to any particular channel, not channel to channel. It's just a function of the noise of the measurement.

 

In converse, the absolute accuracy specs are on the pages before, and the simplified overall accuracy graphs are on the pages afterward.

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Here are a few pieces of code that I used in my application (attached). And a few notes to help you port them over to what you probably want to do.

 

1) I was taking voltage measurements at the known reference temperatures. In your case the known reference temperatures would correspond to your bath. You will need to keep track of the Cold Junction temperatures while you perform your reference measurements in order to correctly compensate your reference temperatures prior to calculating polynomials.

 

2) For each thermocouple I was using, I took the voltage measurements at the various temperatures and then fed them into a "generate polynomial" type of VI to get polynomial coefficients to describe that particular thermocouple channel.

 

3) I wrote a scaling VI that would take in a voltage measurement and spit out the temperature for each type I had in my system.

 

4) My final acquisition code used the scaling VIs for both the voltage measurements I made on the channels and it used the inverse scaling to compensate for the Cold Junction temperature. In my final application the CJC was approximated as a constant 74F, but you'll need to actually measure the built-in CJC temperature through some acquisition code on the NI-9213.

 

5) I did my calibrations in Fahrenheit which was appropriate for my particular application but it should be straightforward to go back to Celsius.

 

 

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Hi again and thanks for the help/guidance. I am going to try out the method you stated and see where that gets me. As a side note I was wondering if adjusting the cold junction constant like I did to correct an offset would have any other consequences, obviously it would affect the absolute accuracy but would it have any negative effect when comparing channels?

 

Many thanks

 

Jamie.

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Hi Jamie,

 

While simply offsetting the CJC temperature on some channels is not perfect, it might get you a long way toward your goal. It's drawback is that, since the sensitivity of any thermocouple is not linear AND not all the error is CJC error some of it is voltage offset or other things, a simple "subtract x degrees from the CJC" will inherently miss a little of that non-linearity and incorrectly place all the error onto your CJC. This will cause extra error as the absolute temperature of your CJC shifts. But I think it will work pretty well if you can keep the absolute temperature of your CJC fairly constant.

 

But the proof is in the pudding. If you can cycle your bath from 0 to 100C and get the channel to channel matching that you were looking for, then it sounds like your approximation is good enough (and simpler than what I suggested).

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Hi Jamie,

 

Did you ever get this resolved satisfactorily?

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