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What is correct wiring for oscilloscope function with DAQCard-6024E and SCB-68 hardware?

I'm a little lost on how to connect the DAQCard AI with the signal that I want to examine. Hopefully this community can give me advice.

 

I need to check the integrity of the 3.3 VDC pulse position modulation PPM sum signal in a RC transmitter with a scope, for typical signal explanation see e.g. second picture here https://blog.poscope.com/rc-simulator-interface-ppm-decoding/ .

 

I do not own a scope but instead I want to use my DAQCard-6024E (pcmcia) with a SHC68-68-EP shielded cable / SCB-68 terminal block and WinXP/LabVIEW 8.2 with a scope VI. The configuration of the card in MAX and the VI are running fine, the scope VI reads 2 channels on DIFF inputs AI 0/8 and AI 1/9.  

 

I have very little knowledge about oscilloscopes and signal conditioning, but I did read that the signal that you measure can be pretty influenced by the hardware wiring/probe selection due to signal loading and capacitive issues leading to signal distortion. Important issues are scope impedance, typically 1 MOhm matching with the wiring/probe resistance / scope 20 pF capacitor and the required signal attenuation (1:1, 1:10 etc.).

When I checked the presence of a 1 VDC signal on AI0/8 DIFF in MAX with normal non-shielded twisted leads on the SCB-68 terminals 68/34, I could clearly see how easy the measured value was highly influenced by my hands near or around the wires.  

 

So I studied some DIY probe sites which explain the required cable type, cable resistance, resistors and capacitors for a suitable probe connected to the scope 1 MOhm / 20 pF input. But after reading the NI hardware specs I found that this does not resemble the hardware setup I plan to use.

 

Between the DAQCard-6024 and the measured signal there is a shielded cable and a terminal box where the probe will be attached to the AI connectors. And the DAQCard-6024 has an 100 GOhm / 100 pF input. So many differences compared to a typical scope wiring of the probe:

  1. SCB-68 terminal block;
  2. SHC68-68-EP shielded cable;
  3. Shielded probe cable, mostly coax;
  4. Input resistance 100 GOhm vs. typical 1 MOhm;
  5. Input capacity 100 pF vs. typical 20 pF.  

So before I continue with the PPM signal measurement it is necessary to fit the wiring for my hardware, otherwise the result will definitely be that the PPM signal is not good.

 

I hope you can give me advice on what would be the best wiring to get a good oscilloscope measurement of the PPM signal. Thank you very mucht in advance.

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Hello Rovalo!

 

The main difference I see is that your 6024E is an I/O module sampling up to 200kS/s compared to a scope which is often in the range of several to many MHz. So at least a factor 100 difference. On the other hand the 6024E has 16 AI channels (and many more AO, DI, and DO). Therefore don't expect the bandwidth or performance of a scope inside an I/O card!

 

Regarding your probes: Your PWM signal is a square wave with low/high changes at less than 1kHz. Don't know what the smallest change in your signal's timing is, maybe you need 100kHz sampling rate in the end?

 

Please consider that your 6024E's input is not a scope input, you are not connecting (potentially compensated) probes to it, instead just a bare metal wire. Therefore the voltage and current actually reaching your input is close to what the tip of your wire "sees". As there is e.g. no 9MOhm resistor in the tip of your "probe", there is no longish charge time of the 100pF capacitor inside the "scope's" input.

 

Have you tried connecting your sender? What signal do you see? Have you measured a know signal as comparison?


Ingo – LabVIEW 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, NXG 2.0, 2.1, 3.0
CLADMSD
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Thanks for your reply ikaiser!

 

Yes, I understand my DAQ card has some limitations compared to a scope. But I also think the cards sampling rate should be sufficient for the PWM signal.

 

I did not yet measure the PWM signal because my questions came up when I was doing some simple tests with DAQmx and saw crazy voltages and waves. Meanwhile I did some more reading and found this white paper https://www.ni.com/en/shop/data-acquisition/measurement-fundamentals/field-wiring-and-noise-consider... about field wiring, this explains important factors that I did not realize.

 

  1. I did already use the DIFF input configuration (balanced) for my Floating Signal Source, but not the two bias resistors as per table 4. I read  that the SCB-68 has preparations for these resistors, I doubt if they are in place already. Most likely this is one of the main causes for the bad signal measurement. I do not know if the PWM signal has low or high impedance so what to take for R1/R2, I will try 100kOhm.
  2. Also based on your third alinea and the paper, I concluded I have to use a shielded twisted pair for wiring without any resistors/capacitors as present in a normal scope probe. Just direct connection of the wires, I intend to try UTP network cable.
  3. I will put the shield on the ground of the PWM signal for correct shielding as per figure 17.

This should give a more consistent measurement.

Suggestions for further improvements are more than welcome, thank you!

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Yes, the Field Wiring Guide is amazing!

Ok, so we are moving in a different direction now. Bias resistors can indeed make a huge difference in many cases. The signals you are measuring, are they coming from the RC transmitter PCB or are you using an actual RF sender and receiver nearby? If so, differential connections, shielding etc. seem indeed very important to me. 

 

Regarding figure 17 of the guide: Please note that the signal source shown there is grounded, therefore it makes sense to have the shielding connected to its GND. If I understand you correctly, your source is floating. Connecting the shielding to it might work as an antenna. It's impossible to predict if the shielding on the same ground plane or the "antenna" part has a bigger influence. Just test the signals you get when connecting the shielding to the device or an external GND (e.g. on the DAQ module). One might look better. Keep in mind that moving your devised around could change the whole set-up, so you might re-test this setup in the future.

 

 


Suggestions for further improvements are more than welcome, thank you!

I still dare to write this: In case you want to test if additional shielding is needed, kitchen aluminium foil is good temporary makeshift shielding.


Ingo – LabVIEW 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, NXG 2.0, 2.1, 3.0
CLADMSD
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The testing I did up to now was with an adjustable power supply connected with unshielded wires to the DIFF input, no bias resistors.

 

The PWM signal to measure has to be taken from the sender PCB, it is the input for the HF circuitry. Yes, it is floating and I get your point with respect to the cable shield, will try both ends.

 

I mentioned to use UTP network cable but I realise this is Unshielded Twisted Pair so not what I need... So I need to find an alternative, do you think the wire thickness could affect the measurement? Thicker wire gives more signal load so thinner is better?

 

 

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I searched through my stuff and found some cables with a shielded pair or few single shielded wires. Would it be necessary to have a twisted pair or will non-twisted but shielded be sufficient?

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Hello Rovalo,

My impression is that neither the wire thickness (is generally small) nor twisted/non-twisted would make a big difference.

 

If you have really long wires then twisted pairs on a differential voltage measurement help preventing noise from induction in the resulting measurement. As your wires don't transport any reasonable current (diameter) or high-frequency signal (surface area -> litz wire), it can be as small as you want in your case. The capacity of your cable grows with the volume of metal. However, I assume that your PCB can source enough current to overcome the little capacity of the wire. Especially as we are talking about a 1kHz signal, not 100 MHz.

Shielding is always good. If twisted pair with shielded pairs or single shielded wires with a different shielding gives better results is something only a test can show.

 

Edit: You mentioned UTP. Sounds like you have Ethernet cables. Please note that there are many different names around but two cables with the same name don't necessarily have the same shielding inside. If you e.g. have two SF/FTP cables, have a look inside to check which one is better...


Ingo – LabVIEW 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, NXG 2.0, 2.1, 3.0
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That is good news, then I will take a shortest possible shielded pair cable with the bias resistors.

 

Yes, the UTP cable I have is network cable without shield, not suitable. 

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