Labview and GPIB upgrade horror

[Johannes Eble]

Hello community,

I have to upgrade and extend an old LabView system. The old system
runs with LabView 4.01 and Win3.11 and has been working for years
without problems. It uses the standard GPIB VIs in LabView to
commumicate with measuring devices, sensors, supplies, heaters, etc.

I really can't understand why I get a GPIB error 3 with *most* of the
devices under LabView 5.1/Win98 and *exactly* the same GPIB devices
and VIs. The GPIB VIs just initialize the GPIB, and write strings,
then close the GPIB. No more. I don't understand why something that
worked with an *older* version of LabView systematically fails with a
newer version (I could understand it vice versa).
I know that the standard answer is 'you can't use a LabView 4.01
driver in LabView 5.1', but these 'drivers' are no real drivers. They
just form the string to write to GPIB for the GPIB device,
respectively. No more. And the string to write didn't change because
the GPIB devices didn't change.
Also, it doesn't seem to be a problem of an odd GPIB device (exotic or
ancient), but a general problem. Could it be that I miss something in
the configuration of the GPIB card? In LabView 5.1 I can configure the
GPIB in the Measurement and Automation Explorer (GPIB Properties). I
would like to verify the configuration with that used in LabView
4.01/Win3.11. I do not have an Automation Explorer in LabView
4.01/Win3.11. How do I get the same information there?

It is probably not even a LabView 4.01 -> LabView 5.1 problem. The old
system is on a 486 PC and certainly uses an older PCI GPIB card. The
newer system runs on a Pentium II and uses a brand new PCI GPIB card
from NI. I tried to installate LabView 4.01 on the newer PC (yes,
after having removed LabView 5.1), but the GPIB VIs didn't work
either. Note, however, that it is LabView 4.01 for Windows 3.1
(16bit), (we only have the 16bit version) so, I am actually not
surprised that it doesn't work with Win98. Some person suggested to
use a rather old GPIB card in the new system, but this can't be true
IMHO.
Another person pointed out that maybe NI changed the interface of the
GPIB write VI. That is, even if the VI has exactly the same appearance
and connectors in both LabView versions, some connectors that were
optional in LV4 could have become mandatory in LV5. I read the
documentation of the GPIB write VI in both versions. It is exactly the
same. It would be more than strange, anyway.

When I tried to write a GPIB 'driver' and I have a working driver for
an older version than I analysed the string the old VI writes to the
GPIB and I write exactly the same string to GPIB in the new driver.
It's very strange for me that this doesn't work.

Maybe another person has some experience and give me a hint what
*could* work (maybe with GPIB II or VISA).


Thanks very much.


Best regards


Johannes

[Ray.R]

Wow... That's a lot of info..

First of all, let me understand the scenario.

1. Newer PC from 486 to P-II.
2. From Win-3.11 to Win-98.
3. Newer GPIB cards.
4. Upgrade to LV-5.1
5. vi's remained unchanged from LV4.01.
6. Instruments are the same, same cables, etc.

The problem is the inability to communicate with the instruments or inability to configure them.


Let's look at the additional info:

"I really can't understand why I get a GPIB error 3 with *most* of the devices under LabView 5.1/Win98 and *exactly* the same GPIB devices
and VIs."

So you are able to communicate with some of the devices.

My first question would be:
Q: Did you use MAX (Measurement & Automation eXplorer) to detect your GPIB card and find the instruments? The GPIB interface should show up under "Devices & Interfaces". It probably does since you are able to communicate with some. Otherwise, I would recommend looking into the device driver info within "System" in Control Panel of Win-98 to determine if there is a conflict with the board..

Ok... let's dig deeper...

"The GPIB VIs just initialize the GPIB, and write strings, then close the GPIB."

The newer LV version should do the same thing. Thise are instrument-related strings.. Which means it should still work.. Let's dig further..


"the GPIB devices didn't change."

Did you install a new GPIB card? Device... you mean instrument, right?


"Could it be that I miss something in
the configuration of the GPIB card? In LabView 5.1 I can configure the GPIB in the Measurement and Automation Explorer (GPIB Properties). "

Maybe.. So try this..

In MAX, go to Devices and Instruments, select the "troublesome" instrument and click on "Communicate with Instrument". Here, you can send your string and see "manually" the response from the instrument or observe the behaviour of the instrument based on the command or string that you send it. That will tell you a lot about the communication over GPIB..


"I would like to verify the configuration with that used in LabView 4.01/Win3.11. I do not have an Automation Explorer in LabView 4.01/Win3.11. How do I get the same information there?"

Focus on the newer LV5.1. You're stepping up...Don't turn back. ;o)

"It is probably not even a LabView 4.01 -> LabView 5.1 problem. "

-- agreed --

Here is another clue:

"The newer system runs on a Pentium II and uses a brand new PCI GPIB card from NI. I tried to installate LabView 4.01 on the newer PC (yes,
after having removed LabView 5.1), but the GPIB VIs didn't work either."

That would indicate that the problem is not the newer version of LV, but more likely related to the GPIB card or setting. Did you get those newer GPIB cards to work? Or can you try the "older" ISA GPIB card in the newer PC? Also, how did you communicate with some of the instruments?

"Some person suggested to use a rather old GPIB card in the new system, but this can't be true IMHO."

--- why not try it?? --


"When I tried to write a GPIB 'driver' and I have a working driver for an older version than I analysed the string the old VI writes to the GPIB and I write exactly the same string to GPIB in the new driver."

You'd expect that if the problem is not related to LV. So again, it tends to indicate that the problem is with the GPIB card somehow..

Investigate the GPIB card functionality.

-have fun-

JLV

[Johannes Eble]

Hi Joe,

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 07:32:37 -0600 (CST), JoeLabView
wrote:

>Wow... That's a lot of info..
>
>First of all, let me understand the scenario.
>
>1. Newer PC from 486 to P-II.
>2. From Win-3.11 to Win-98.
>3. Newer GPIB cards.
>4. Upgrade to LV-5.1
>5. vi's remained unchanged from LV4.01.
>6. Instruments are the same, same cables, etc.
>
>The problem is the inability to communicate with the instruments or
>inability to configure them.

Correct.

>
>
>Let's look at the additional info:
>
>"I really can't understand why I get a GPIB error 3 with *most* of the
>devices under LabView 5.1/Win98 and *exactly* the same GPIB devices
>and VIs."
>
>So you are able to communicate with some of the devices.

Yes, with two of them, because I could get *working* LabView 5.1
drivers for these devices. I didn't have to write them myself. I have
looked at the drivers for these devices. One is a Keithley 2000
driver. Internally it uses the standard GPIB write VI. The other is a
VISA driver for a Toellner power supply.

>
>My first question would be:
>Q: Did you use MAX (Measurement & Automation eXplorer) to detect your
>GPIB card and find the instruments? The GPIB interface should show up
>under "Devices & Interfaces". It probably does since you are able to
>communicate with some.

Yes, I can find all instruments when I scan in the MAX, even if one
instrument (a Heraeus-Voetsch HT4004 oven) doesn't return an
identification string. But that is no error because the oven is
connected via a GPIB to serial interface converter (from the same
company.) and I guess they just wanted to get conversion done without
cosmetics 😉

>Otherwise, I would recommend looking into the
>device driver info within "System" in Control Panel of Win-98 to
>determine if there is a conflict with the board..

I can even query the HT4004 for *IDN? and I don't get an error. (I
just get a white space (?) because the HT4004 doesn't return an
identification string as I wrote above, but I don't get an error).

In fact, this HT4004 is the last GPIB instrument that doesn't work,
because I have found a substitute or a workaround for *all other*
instruments that didn't work. But I *have* to use this HT4004. And it
is no instrument specific error because in the beginning I got this
error with allmost all GPIB instruments.

....

>"the GPIB devices didn't change."
>
>Did you install a new GPIB card? Device... you mean instrument,
>right?

Yes. The new LabView 5.1 system is running on another PC with another
brand new GPIB card from NI, but the GPIB instruments (measuring
devices, HT4004) didn't change.
>
>
>"Could it be that I miss something in
>the configuration of the GPIB card? In LabView 5.1 I can configure the
>GPIB in the Measurement and Automation Explorer (GPIB Properties). "
>
>Maybe.. So try this..
>
>In MAX, go to Devices and Instruments, select the "troublesome"
>instrument and click on "Communicate with Instrument". Here, you can
>send your string and see "manually" the response from the instrument
>or observe the behaviour of the instrument based on the command or
>string that you send it. That will tell you a lot about the
>communication over GPIB..

I have tried this, but nothing happens. The HT4004 should turn on a
ventilator and begin to warm up. Tomorrow, I will try it again, I am
not in the Lab today. But you mean that I should do a *write*, not a
*query* with the string?

>"I would like to verify the configuration with that used in LabView
>4.01/Win3.11. I do not have an Automation Explorer in LabView
>4.01/Win3.11. How do I get the same information there?"
>
>Focus on the newer LV5.1. You're stepping up...Don't turn back. ;o)

Yes. I just want to check if the configuration is special in the
LabView 4.01 system (maybe a check on 'send EOI with EOS or another
timing).
I would actually turn back to a 4.01 system that works instead of a
7.0 system that doesn't. However, I would definitely not turn back to
Win16. 😉

....

>That would indicate that the problem is not the newer version of LV,
>but more likely related to the GPIB card or setting. Did you get
>those newer GPIB cards to work?

Hmm, it works with the Keithley and Toellner instruments. Also, I have
tried the whole system on a *third* PC with Win98/LabView5.1/PCI GPIB
card. Same error.

>Or can you try the "older" ISA GPIB
>card in the newer PC?

I think it is a PCI card. I will try that too, as a last step, since I
hesitate to destroy a running system...


Johannes

[Ray.R]

Hi Johannes,

It looks as though there was progress, except for the oven.


> I have tried this, but nothing happens.
> The HT4004 should turn on a ventilator and begin to
> warm up. Tomorrow, I will try it again, I am
> not in the Lab today. But you mean that I should do
> a *write*, not a *query* with the string?

If the oven does not respond to a *query, then yes, try a known command. Also, try contacting the mfg if they have any newer vi's or .dll's

-have fun -

JLV

[Dennis_Knutson]

I think you might be correct about the gpib board settings. Somehting that old might not be 488.2 compliant and could use a different termination. It has been a very long time since I've done anything with windows 3.1 but I'm sure there was some configuration program that could change the termination. On DOS, it was called ibconfig.exe I believe. Have you done a search of NI for the windows 3.1 manual for the gpib card? As Joe mentioned, you might want to contact the manufacturer of the chamber. The other thing you might want to try is adding either a CR or LF to the gpib commands you send. Some serial converters require this and that may have been what the old configuration did for this thing.

[Johannes Eble]

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:07:00 -0600 (CST), JoeLabView
wrote:

>Hi Johannes,
>
>It looks as though there was progress, except for the oven.

Well, only because I simply replaced most of the other instruments. I
replaced, for example, a HP 3478A multimeter with the Keithley 2000 (I
was so happy that another section have placed an order for some couple
of time). I couldn't get the HP 3478A running, even with the LabView
5.1 'driver' (always the same error 3). Another instrument was a
matrix switch from Pickering-Interfaces (I have stated a question
concerning the Pickering-Interfaces here in the NG, because, at that
time, I thought the problem is specific to that instrument). Again, I
even got a so-called LabView 5.1 driver from Pickering-Interfaces. But
the date of it showed me that it was more probably a LabView 3.0
driver. Anyway, it didn't work, but somehow, I could dispense with the
instrument. A similar story with a programmable current source
(Advantest). After *hunting* for a LabView 5.1 driver (the instrument
is from 1987 and the Advantest has stopped the support long time ago
giving it to Rohde&Schwarz, at least in Europe) I realized that it is
probably less efford for me to sold my own current source. It works
perfect now: No GPIB, no LabView, just analog.
You know, this is kind of running the gauntlet: NI replies that you
have to find a LabView 5.1 driver for this odd piece of GPIB
instrument. The manufacturers on the other hand say that this must be
a general LabView/GPIB problem if it happens with so many instruments
(and I think they are right).
But the oven *really* has to work as is. I can't even think of
replacing it.

> Also, try contacting the mfg if they have any newer vi's or
>dll's

I have also done that with the oven (Heraeus-Voetsch). They told me
that they sell the drivers for the current versions for a couple of
hundred Euro. Honestly, I don't want to spend so much money for
something that already *worked* in the older version. And even if I
wanted I doubt that my client for whom I am programming the system is
willing to pay. And damned, it costs time! In a big company, you can't
just go shopping. You have to write an order. The order has to be
signed and so on. I want to finish the project by Christmas 😉


Johannes


>
>-have fun -
>
>JLV

[Ray.R]

Excellent advice, Dennis..

🐵

[Johannes Eble]

Hi Dennis,

thanks for your advice.

Since the oven is the only instrument left that doesn't work, I will
try to run it from the serial port instead of the GPIB (there is a
GPIB/serial interface converter between the PC and the oven). Thus I
will try to get rid of the converter. First I will try this from the
MAX, since, if it doesn't work from the MAX it is not worthwhile to
even try it from LabView. This is at least an advice from a local
NI/LabView expert.


Johannes